Charlotte Joko Beck

Shambhala SunSpace recently published an interview with Charlotte Joko Beck, conducted by Donna Rockwell.

In my experience, few teachers have Beck's willingness to jettison all the trappings and traditions of Buddhism, in order to express themselves without disguise. I hope you'll read the entire interview, below.

How old were you when you started meditating?

Charlotte Joko Beck: Thirty-nine, forty, somewhere in there.

Did you have any realization through meditation?

No. Of course we have realizations, but that’s not really what drives practice.

Will you say more about that?

I meet all sorts of people who’ve had all sorts of experiences and they’re still confused and not doing very well in their life. Experiences are not enough. My students learn that if they have so-called experiences, I really don’t care much about hearing about them. I just tell them, “Yeah, that’s O.K. Don’t hold onto it. And how are you getting along with your mother?” Otherwise, they get stuck there. It’s not the important thing in practice.

And may I ask you what is?

Learning how to deal with one’s personal, egotistic self. That’s the work. Very, very difficult.

There seems to be a payoff, though, because you feel alive instead of dead.

I wouldn’t say a payoff. You’re returning to the source, you might say - what you always were, but which was severely covered by your core belief and all its systems. And when those get weaker, you do feel joy. I mean, then it’s no big deal to do the dishes and clean up the house and go to work and things like that.

Doing the dishes is a great meditation — especially if you hate it…

Well, if your mind wanders to other things while you’re doing the dishes, just return it to the dishes. Meditation isn’t something special. It’s not a special way of being. It’s simply being aware of what is going on.

Doesn’t sitting meditation prepare the ground to do that?

Sure. It gives you the strength to face the more complex things in your life. You’re not meeting anything much when you’re sitting except your little mind. That’s relatively easy when compared to some of the complex situations we have to live our way through. Sitting gives you the ability to work with your life.

I read your books.

Oh you read. Well, give up reading, O.K.?

Give up reading your books?

Well, they’re all right. Read them once and that’s enough. Books are useful. But some people read for fifty years, you know. And they haven’t begun their practice.

How would you describe self-discovery?

You’re really just an ongoing set of events: boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, one after the other. The awareness is keeping up with those events, seeing your life unfolding as it is, not your ideas of it, not your pictures of it. See what I mean?

How would you define meditation?

Awareness of what is, mentally, physically.

Can you please complete the following sentences for me? “The experience of meditation is…”

“…awareness of what is.”

“Meditative awareness has changed my life in the following way…”

“It has changed my life in the direction of it being more harmonious, more satisfactory, more joyful and more useful probably.” Though I don’t think much in those terms. I don’t wake up in the morning thinking I’m going to be useful. I really think about what I’m going to have for breakfast.”

“The one thing awareness has taught me that I want to share with all people is that…”

I don’t want to share anything with all people.

Who do you want to share with?

Nobody. I just live my life. I don’t go around wanting to share something. That’s extra.

Could you talk about that a little bit?

Well, there’s a little shade of piety that creeps into practice. You know, “I have this wonderful practice, I want to share it with everyone.” There’s an error in that. You could probably figure it out yourself.

I think that’s something I need to learn.

You and I know there’s nothing that’s going to make me run away faster than somebody who comes around and wants to be helpful. You know what I mean? I don’t want people to be helpful to me. I just want to live my own life.

Do you think you share yourself?

Yeah, but who’s that?

Comments

[fw]

Wow, this was like cold water splashed in the face. She cuts right through the BS, doesn't she? Thank you, Barry. I needed my sh*t challenged today....
Peace to you

[Lauren Crane]

Barry, what a nice coincidence. I was really off my practice this morning. Wondering if I was really cut out for this Zen s**t. Comparing how I feel about it this morning with "wonderful people" I know who are very content and doing "good things" with Zen. Feeling like I should just go be a Methodist or something. This encourages me to embrace these curmudgeonly feelings (but strive to sit anyway).

.Gassho.

[mama p]

I wasn't going to say anything, but in the end, I have to :) Please understand, it's coming from a loving place...

How ironic to read such a straightforward interview with such a straightforward teacher, to then switch to responses that each employ a meekish, polite "sh*t"...

Friends!
Once more, for Joko, and with feeling!
SHIT!

:)
Thank you. Great to read this today.

[John Small]

Boy did I just get hit!

[Jordan]

"Well, there’s a little shade of piety that creeps into practice. You know, “I have this wonderful practice, I want to share it with everyone.” There’s an error in that. You could probably figure it out yourself."

Oh that is so me. I wonder if I will ever figure out what the error in that is?

[fw]

Mama P,
Point well taken. :)

SHIT then!

[Val]

There's just nothing like a well-placed "shit!" to get the point across. I, for one, find shit one of the most useful words of the english language... There's nary a word quite as multi-purposed...

We buy shit, eat shit, throw shit, talk shit...etc... I could go on but I won't because -- just like most of us -- I'm full of shit.

[Val]

With a ; ) and a : ) of course....

[jill]

Thanks Barry, my first exposure to Zen beyond general awareness was Everyday Zen by Charlotte Joko Beck, sent to me by a friend whose a member of the San Francisco Zen Center. I was looking for more hooks in her no bullshit prose, a little warm and fuzzy or something.

But I'm closer now. A bit. She cuts through endless delusions. Good reminder.

[jill]

editorial correction to last post...

"...a friend who is a member of SFZC..."

(not whose...)

checking mind, the editor in me...

[Barry Briggs]

I'm sitting here laughing loudly.

Thank you, everyone, for reaching out to one another with interest and insight!

[Alice]

Hey Barry ~

Just catching up on all the posts I've missed, and as a welcome, getting whacked all over with sticks and now polishing off a shiny black eye from Charlotte Joko Beck. Thank you 'mam, may I have another!

BTW, your daughter is a beauty! May your knee pain, and "chair" complex, speedily improve.

[John Small]

Still getting hit.

[Barry Briggs]

Hi Alice, glad to see you up and about! Knee is better, chair is comfy . . .

Hi John . . . yes, it's the gift that keeps on giving . . .

[eric kolste]

I think Joko means by piety that that non-existant I is mixed up in whatever wonderful things we are trying to do and bogs us further down into our delusion...

[Barry Briggs]

Hi Eric - Thanks so much for your comment. In my own experience, whenever the thought that "I can help..." appears, then I've already fallen into the ditch. When that thought appears, then I'm only going to make things worse. When that thought appears, it's driven - inevitably - by ego. So, if I understand you rightly, that thought, "I can help..." is essentially delusory (there's an "I" and "helping" is possible). That's my experience - certainly my own attempts at "helping" usually involve some manipulation.

[Neil]

So - don't preach. Get on with the real stuff. Practice.

[suzy]

hi
first, excuse my english, i'm a french speaker.
does anyone of you know where is joko beck now? i would like to go to a sesshin directed by her.
i know she's not in san diego anymore. I heard that she might be in arizona, but where? is she attached to any zen center? have an adress? thank you

suzy

[Virginia Braden]

If you have piety in teaching something like Zen or a religion, then you start to think, self-righteously, that you can save somebody....and, of course, that somebody is going to flee from you as fast as they can. It is pious to think that we can save somebody. She is, of course, totally perceptive in a beautiful spontaneous way. It is just pure and simple honesty acquired with years of seeking the truth.

[Delores Nims]

Joko, I studied will you in San Diego and I want to thank you for my practice. It has transformed my life. i have started a meditation group at the Unitarian Church in Ashland, Oregon which continues to nurture me and support my practice. I ekspecially appreciate your clarity and practical nature. Thank you for my life.
Delores